Why Wire/Signal instead of Matrix/Riot?

[Nic-Wow1]

Why is Wire/Signal rated above riot.im?

It even lists some of their major flaws:
Signal:
Warning: Requires a mobile number to register but you can securely use a disposable number.
Wire:
Caution: The company keeps a list of all the users you contact until you delete your account.

Riot, is FLOSS and decentralized while Wire/Signal is centralized and non-privacy respecting.

Plz consider recommending Riot over Wire and/or Signal.

Your statement reads like the typical "XMPP/Matrix are the most secure and most private possibilities to chat on earth" statements.

Riot, is FLOSS and decentralized while Wire/Signal is centralized and non-privacy respecting.

FLOSS is neither a privacy nor a security feature. Furthermore, decentralization isn't a privacy feature and when it comes to security, decentralization most notably provides availability (exceptions confirm the rule.)

Feel free to provide any credible source that confirms your "Wire/Signal is … non-privacy respecting" statement.

[Nic-Wow1]

@infosec-handbook

FLOSS is neither a privacy nor a security feature. Furthermore, decentralization isn't a privacy feature and when it comes to security, decentralization most notably provides availability (exceptions confirm the rule.)

If it isn't, I wonder why some many decentralized solutions and self-hosting is seemingly always put above centralized services. Just look at I2p-Bote. :/

Edit: FLOSS is a privacy feature in the same way Open Source is.
FLOSS is an Ideology!

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Feel free to provide any credible source that confirms your "Wire/Signal is … non-privacy respecting" statement.

Creditable Source? Here are some from the privacytools.io website :)

Signal:

Warning: Requires a mobile number to register but you can securely use a disposable number.

Wire:

Caution: The company keeps a list of all the users you contact until you delete your account.

Source: https://archive.fo/ARZe4#im

I wonder why some many decentralized solutions and self-hosting is seemingly always put above centralized services

This depends on which blogs you read. Some people tell you that decentralization/federation are privacy features. We doubt this.

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FLOSS is a privacy feature in the same way Open Source is. FLOSS is an Ideology!

You said it! FLOSS is an ideology. FLOSS lovers frequently seem to ignore that FLOSS never guarantees either privacy or security.

Feel free to read this article: XMPP: Admin-in-the-middle. FLOSS lovers tell you over and over again that XMPP is extremely privacy-friendly while XMPP admins can log and modify nearly everything including passwords in cleartext. They can even impersonate other XMPP accounts by design. Is this privacy? (Yes, this is about XMPP but is likely also true for Matrix servers.)

"Host your own server" is the typical response here: Hosting your own server requires knowledge about server-side security features, frequent maintenance and without your own server infrastructure you give away physical control of your server. On top of that, your server most likely contains hundreds of proprietary hardware components. Some FLOSS running on mostly proprietary software and hardware looks like a placebo.

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Creditable Source? Here are some from the privacytools.io website :)

You simply repeated your first statement. You suggest a service which requires a phone number for registration doesn't respect your privacy.

The Signal warning on privacytools.io links to one of our blog posts: Signal requires an arbitrary phone number which you must control during the registration process. However, you don't have to use your own private cellphone number. You can use the Tor Browser to get a disposable phone number for registration, set a PIN and never need access to the phone number during normal operation.

Furthermore, Signal doesn't need to access any of your contacts and you actually don't have to use a cellphone to register a phone number at all. Besides Signal is open source software and enforces modern, audited end-to-end encryption. I can't identify any problems here.

[kevATin]

exactly my thought last time i went over the site- matrix isn't just decentralized it's also federated giving the user an enormous advantage in freedom and privacy compared to non-federated alternatives like signal/wire/etc.

@infosec-handbook

FLOSS lovers frequently seem to ignore that FLOSS never guarantees either privacy or security.

FLOSS doesn't guarantee perfect privacy and security, but without being FLOSS there's absolutely no chance of something being perfect at privacy and security- so what's your point?

@kevATin

isn't just decentralized it's also federated giving the user an enormous advantage in freedom and privacy

Define "freedom" and the scope of "privacy" in your statement. Personal information exposed to server admins doesn't look enormously private to me.

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When I look at @Nic-Wow1's original statement, he/she complains about Signal's usage of phone numbers. As I pointed out, you can use any phone number. You only must control it during registration. The fact that you can use an arbitrary phone number is privacy-friendly.

Then he/she continues to point out FLOSS/decentralization. Signal is open source software. Why is Matrix better here? Once, Signal was also federated but they decided to drop this feature to speed up development of a more secure and uniform infrastructure. Look at the XMPP mess. This decision looks justified.

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So what exactly is your (@kevATin) or @Nic-Wow1's point? I only see FLOSS lovers who hate services like Signal due to the centralized nature. Next time, someone turns up to tell us that XMPP must be on the top due to Conversations being so nice. Then someone spots the next messenger on GitHub and wants to see it on privacytools.

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Feel free to read this EFF post (and the rest of the series): https://www.eff.org/de/deeplinks/2018/03/secure-messaging-more-secure-mess. This series shows why all messenger recommendations are biased.

[kevATin]

@infosec-handbook

Personal information exposed to server admins doesn't look enormously private to me.

I'm not sure what you are referring to, but in almost all cases you have to be able to trust the server(s) you use to a certain degree, you won't be able to get around that, no matter the service architecture. But guess what, since it's federated everyone is capable of hosting their own server (hopefully you trust yourself) and still be able to interact with anyone else- that's why i pointed out how important Federation is.

The fact that you can use an arbitrary phone number is privacy-friendly.
You fail to see my point, you are still bound to just a single server- the one that's owned by Signal.

Once, Signal was also federated but they decided to drop this feature to speed up development of a more secure and uniform infrastructure.
So what? I guess Apple is just doing us all a real favour by locking everyone but their devs out of the system, they should lock down their infrastructure even more tightly, because it would certainly "speed up development of a more secure and uniform infrastructure".
Cutting down on privacy features in the name of "actually doing something good for privacy" is not only counter productive, it's downright evil.

XMPP mess
yeah lots of people tried starting their own thing with xmpp that's why it turned into a mess- which is exactly the reason why everyone should support what Matrix is doing, its a clear standard from scratch that covers all needs from irc to xmpp to voip and etc.

I only see FLOSS lovers who hate services like Signal due to the centralized nature.
ehm yeah? that's kinda a big issue.

everyone is capable of hosting their own server

everyone is capable of hosting their own server is as theoretical as everyone can read and verify open source code.

Let's change this statement to: technical people with time, money and experience can host their own server which has to be in full physical control to be trustworthy … then you have a server with proprietary hardware. Did you check it for hardware backdoors? Did you check its BIOS? Did you check the source code of the OS? Did you check the source code of the server software? Renting a server and installing server software is easy, securely operating a server isn't easy and for everybody at all.

in almost all cases you have to be able to trust the server

As for Signal, account management happens on the client. Data transfer between clients and servers is encrypted, messages are end-to-end encrypted. No unencrypted fallback and since it's open source, you can check it. Why do I have to trust the server in this scenario? Metadata? Metadata is always there and can be monitored everywhere. The server provider can log your metadata, your ISP can log your metadata … even if you are on Matrix/XMPP etc.

As for XMPP, all your data including your contacts, your account information, your password etc. is exposed in cleartext to the server admin. Admins can arbitrarily change your account data which is then synchronized to your client. That's a big difference.

Cutting down on privacy features

And again you suggest that federation/decentralization are privacy features. No, they aren't.

yeah lots of people tried starting their own thing with xmpp that's why it turned into a mess- which is exactly the reason why everyone should support what Matrix is doing, its a clear standard from scratch that covers all needs from irc to xmpp to voip and etc.

We met mostly people from the XMPP ecosystem and nearly all of them told us that Matrix is absolutely waste of resources.

Nice to see Matrix people telling us that we shouldn't use XMPP and XMPP people telling us that we shouldn't use Matrix. Consequences: XMPP people stay with XMPP, Matrix people stay with Matrix and the majority of people ignores this war of opinions.

ehm yeah? that's kinda a big issue.

See above. Decentralization → no privacy feature.

Back to topic: Recommend Matrix/Riot instead of Signal/Wire since Matrix/Riot is "FLOSS and decentralized while Wire/Signal is centralized and non-privacy respecting".

As for Signal, I see the following benefits:

• It is open source software
• It is developed by computer security researcher Moxie Marlinspike who is also known for the underlying Signal Protocol and other cryptographic findinds
• It is widely recommended by security experts
• It is end-to-end encrypted by default, no unencrypted fallback
• Account management happens on the client-side
• It is security-focused
• It is easy to use and people can easily register for this service
• It is widespread

According to the topics discussed above, there are the following drawbacks:

• Not federated which forces you to use official clients/servers
• Not decentralized which could result in non-availability due to service disruption

As for Wire, someone else has to provide some points. We don't know any Wire users.

Open-source itself isn't a privacy/security feature. An open source keylogger isn't going to provide you with much privacy.

Riot, is FLOSS and decentralized while Wire/Signal is centralized and non-privacy respecting.

How is it non-privacy respecting? This website isn't about recommending unbreakable unusable tools. Convenience also plays a big role. I'll argue that Riot is really non-privacy respecting compared to in-person exchanged one time pads.

A phone number is a good trade-off, you can get one privately.

[skygate2012]

Open-source itself isn't a privacy/security feature. An open source keylogger isn't going to provide you with much privacy.

Open-source is the foundation of privacy. You wouldn't use an open source keylogger because you know it's a keylogger that steals your privacy, but for a closed-source software you could never know whether there's a keylogger or not. You can only rely on its credibility.

A phone number is a good trade-off, you can get one privately.

Governments could easily lookup the owner of a phone number, even if you buy a so-called anonymous phone number, especially for those totalitarian states where surveillance is omnipresent. There is no privacy for a phone number.

Governments could easily lookup the owner of a phone number, even if you buy a so-called anonymous phone number, especially for those totalitarian states where surveillance is omnipresent. There is no privacy for a phone number.

If you live in a totalitarian state, it's very likely that no technology will protect your privacy. Try to run your Matrix server in North Korea.

Most governments can easily monitor servers of hosting companies and your internet connection, too. Thinking that governments can't monitor your conversations since you use Matrix/XMPP is somewhat gullible.

especially for those totalitarian states where surveillance is omnipresent. There is no privacy for a phone number.

More like

especially for those totalitarian states where surveillance is omnipresent. There is no privacy for anything.

The

so-called anonymous phone number

is as private as it gets (when done right).

[gjhklfdsa]

@infosec-handbook I would like to point out that if Wire went under/bankrupt. Wire would no longer work.

This isn't the case with federated/decentralized services.

I would also like to point out that if Wire was proprietary and it went under. Everybody would have to start over as copy-right laws would keep us from forking it.

I think this is the point @Nic-Wow1 is trying to make.

Edit:

If you live in a totalitarian state, it's very likely that no technology will protect your privacy. Try to run your Matrix server in North Korea.

I would like to point our Matrix, would work if you set up a .onion/eepsite server. I am unaware of Wire having a .onion/eepsite.

North Korea has an intranet and basically all hardware contains spyware. Not really a fair analysis. :)

A phone number is a good trade-off, you can get one privately.

I don't doubt you, I just really want to know what service your talking about :)
@Shifterovich

Edit 2:
One more "note", phone numbers cost. While Matrix is free.

Privacy activists need to look into long-term solutions and I would hope to end the usage of phone numbers. Matrix seems to agree: https://invidio.us/watch?v=hwFjWDAyG38

[Kcchouette]

Each 3 components of this issue have pro & cons (Matrix is a protocol, so let's speak about riot.im)

• riot.im e2e encryption is in beta (source: https://about.riot.im/security/) and not used by default, federation is hard (replication of all room) and your message is stocked for 180 days in matrix.org homeserver
• signal is centralized + need a phone number, but it's the most-advanced apps in term of security / encrypted metadata
• wire save your contact list in clear

[Mikaela]

I would like to point our Matrix, would work if you set up a .onion/eepsite server. I am unaware of Wire having a .onion/eepsite.

I have understood that currently, Matrix federation would break up if all servers aren't able to reach other servers, so all servers would need to be dualstack and also support Tor and I2P, Yggdrasil and Cjdns (where Cjdns-only server has caused issues in the past).

riot.im e2e encryption is in beta (source: https://about.riot.im/security/) and not used by default, federation is hard (replication of all room) and your message is stocked for 180 days in matrix.org homeserver

E2EE encryption is mainly supported only by Riot, and maybe there was also a specification misssing preventing others from implementing it properly, I am not sure.

I would also like to add that currently your removed messages and files are also stored by Matrix homeservers forever and no one seems to be commenting the issue. matrix-org/synapse#1287