2021-05-27-chat.txt

08:46:47 From Boris Mann to Everyone : Hi Lance!
08:48:21 From Brooklyn Zelenka to Panelists : Wow so webinar
08:49:15 From Brooklyn Zelenka to Panelists : Anything I can help test?
08:49:19 From Brooklyn Zelenka to Panelists : As an attendee?
08:50:01 From Boris Mann to Everyone : @Brooke — can you add a question please!
08:50:14 From Boris Mann to Everyone : Also can you hear us?
08:50:19 From Brooklyn Zelenka to Panelists : Yup!
08:50:20 From Philipp to Panelists : We hear stuff
08:53:38 From Philipp to Panelists : Haha
08:53:43 From Philipp to Panelists : Fair enough
08:58:28 From Jeremy Nixon to Panelists : Just an experiment! Looking forward to this ^.^
08:59:11 From Christina Bowen to Panelists : :) <3
09:00:13 From Christina Bowen to Boris Mann(Direct Message) : My audio might break down so if I turn off video that it why
09:01:23 From Frode Hegland to Panelists : Hi all, happy to be here
09:02:23 From vera to Everyone : thought legos!
09:04:01 From Gordon Brander to Panelists : LOVE TiddlyWiki!
09:05:00 From Blaine Cook to Panelists : well said
09:05:39 From Stefan to Panelists : Vancouver!
09:06:35 From Gordon Brander to Panelists : Smart move!
09:07:12 From Boris Mann to Everyone : A note: make sure you’re set to “Panelists and Attendees” so everyone can see your comments.
09:07:21 From Boris Mann to Gordon Brander(Direct Message) : You’re on panelist only chat
09:07:29 From Boris Mann to Blaine Cook(Direct Message) : You’re on panelist only chat
09:07:42 From vera to Everyone : 👍
09:07:51 From Gyuri Lajos to Everyone : Cannot see the crowd?
09:08:07 From Peter Wasilko to Everyone : Greetings from sunny New York.
09:08:14 From David D to Panelists : Will the recording be available?
09:08:17 From Ethan Plante to Everyone : Looking forward to seeing how tools for thought and decentralization can work together.
09:08:25 From Scott Jenson to Everyone : Waves
09:08:28 From Gordon Brander to Panelists : Woo!
09:08:38 From Christina Bowen to Will F., All Panelists : Will is that you?
09:09:12 From Miguel Marcos Martinez to Everyone : Legos are a good metaphor. The name Lego comes from a Danish phrase which means to play well. We need tools for thought to play well by themselves and with each other.
09:09:47 From Harley Stagner to Everyone : @Miguel THIS. Exactly.
09:10:01 From Norman Chella to Everyone : ^Toys for Thought!
09:10:06 From Ethan Plante to Panelists : ^^^
09:10:09 From Marc-Antoine Parent to Everyone : Big clap to that goal
09:10:12 From Gordon Brander to Everyone : Miguel, that's fantastic!
09:10:46 From Jeremy Ruston to Panelists : “Toys for Thought” is *fantastic*
09:10:55 From Gordon Brander to Everyone : <3
09:11:01 From Christina Bowen to Everyone : +1
09:11:07 From Gordon Brander to Everyone : Toys for thought +100
09:11:10 From Ethan Plante to Panelists : I’m really happy that “toys for thought” is a phrase :)
09:12:07 From vera to Everyone : NFTs for thought!
09:12:35 From Norman Chella to Everyone : IPFS x TFT sounds so cool
09:12:37 From Harley Stagner to Everyone : An ETH for your thought?
09:14:06 From Harley Stagner to Everyone : Or would that be 0.00036 ETH for your thoughts?
09:14:14 From Gyuri Lajos to Everyone : Been Cheerleading Fission ever since I discovered them precisely beacause TfT and improving the intellectual effectiveness of the individual human being needs WebNative: to understand and to be Understood
09:14:25 From Boris Mann to Everyone : https://fission.codes/discord
09:16:59 From Chris Joel to Everyone : Fission sounds really cool; is it possible to try it out?
09:17:18 From vera to Everyone : https://drive.fission.codes
09:17:41 From Jeff Griffiths to Everyone : Yes! Just hop over to https://fission.codes to register an account.
09:18:23 From Null Flancian to Everyone : "every unicode string is a valid markdown document" sounds great to me :)
09:18:24 From Gordon Brander to Everyone : I'm rofl
09:18:48 From vera to Everyone : I thought the box was just part of the zalgo lol
09:18:58 From Gyuri Lajos to Everyone : Me too
09:19:00 From Gordon Brander to Everyone : HERZOG
09:19:03 From Null Flancian to Everyone : super true that markdown parsers are a mess though
09:19:09 From James Cham to Everyone : hahha
09:19:11 From Null Flancian to Everyone : haha
09:19:16 From Tomas Fiers to Everyone : 😂
09:19:19 From vera to Everyone : I love it very much
09:19:22 From Stefan to Everyone : lol
09:19:22 From Gordon Brander to Everyone : LOL
09:19:23 From Abraham Samma to Everyone : lol
09:19:25 From Christina Bowen to Everyone : bwahaha
09:19:26 From Colin-Alexa Robinson to Panelists : hahaha
09:19:32 From vera to Everyone : is there a link to that clip?
09:19:34 From Jeff Griffiths to Everyone : ROFL
09:19:36 From Will F. to Panelists : But I love it against my better judgment
09:19:39 From Doug Holton to Panelists : I would like to see the baby
09:19:47 From Norman Chella to Everyone : He is a mood
09:19:50 From Tomas Fiers to Everyone : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ze9-ARjL-ZA
09:19:51 From Will F. to Everyone : But I love it against my better judgment
09:19:51 From Abraham Samma to Everyone : I need that clip rofl
09:20:09 From Scott Jenson to Everyone : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ze9-ARjL-ZA
09:20:40 From Pete Kaminski to Everyone : “Taking a close look at - at what's around us there - there is some sort of a harmony. It is the harmony of... overwhelming and collective murder. And we in comparison to the articulate vileness and baseness and obscenity of all this jungle - Uh, we in comparison to that enormous articulation - we only sound and look like badly pronounced and half-finished sentences out of a stupid suburban... novel... a cheap novel. We have to become humble in front of this overwhelming misery and overwhelming fornication... overwhelming growth and overwhelming lack of order. Even the - the stars up here in the - in the sky look like a mess. There is no harmony in the universe. We have to get acquainted to this idea that there is no real harmony as we have conceived it. But when I say this, I say this all full of admiration for the jungle. It is not that I hate it, I love it. I love it very much. But I love it against my better judgment.”

― Werner Herzog, Burden of Dreams
09:21:56 From Gyuri Lajos to Everyone : say what you mean, mean what you say - Be a gentleman
09:21:56 From Will F. to Everyone : I want that to replace commenting in code
09:23:55 From vera to Everyone : Blaine has a super high def camera lol
09:26:57 From Bill Seitz to Everyone : Aren’t there effectively/potentially overlapping annotations? Doesn’t that break hierarchy?
09:27:04 From Boris Mann to Everyone : Great, thanks for those questions Brian & Marc-Antoine
09:27:25 From Boris Mann to Everyone : @Bill — good question, please post to Q&A!
09:27:33 From Marc-Antoine Parent to Everyone : Bill: the image showed how overlap introduces a hierarchy level
09:28:08 From James Walker to Everyone : … and as a reminder: we’ll go through questions between presentations, so keep them coming!
09:28:27 From Ethan Plante to Panelists : What was the google docs thing doing?
09:28:30 From Gyuri Lajos to Everyone : Google doc format is really kludgy
09:28:43 From Ethan Plante to Panelists : What context would it be used for?
09:30:26 From Boris Mann to Everyone : @Ethan this is for writing / collaborating in GDoc and then transforming it into published content in HTML (or any other format) while carrying along annotations, formatting, and other semantics
09:32:42 From Peter Wasilko to Everyone : The partial lenses optics library might be a good fit for use with atjson:  https://github.com/calmm-js/partial.lenses
09:34:36 From Gyuri Lajos to Everyone : fixed point, roundtrip, yes
09:36:04 From Gordon Brander to Panelists : deja vu
09:36:05 From Peter Wasilko to Everyone : Perfect sense.
09:36:11 From Gordon Brander to Everyone : deja vu
09:37:14 From Tomas Fiers to Everyone : lol
09:37:20 From Gyuri Lajos to Everyone : How sad that can be
09:37:35 From vera to Everyone : I like this slide
09:37:36 From Abraham Samma to Everyone : Nothing new under the sun? :)
09:37:44 From vera to Everyone : is there a link to slidedeck?
09:38:21 From Pete Kaminski to Everyone : "sometimes data models really do matter"
09:39:03 From Boris Mann to Everyone : @vera we’ll get slide decks shared afterwards
09:39:07 From Bruno Winck to Everyone : reminds me of DXF for 2D CD data translations 1985 :)
09:39:09 From Marc-Antoine Parent to Everyone : So happy we're not constrained in listicle format!
09:39:14 From vera to Everyone : @boris ok thnx
09:40:11 From Marc-Antoine Parent to Everyone : hear, hear!
09:40:22 From Pete Kaminski to Everyone : "you basically have to understand HTML to use Markdown"
09:40:31 From Null Flancian to Everyone : study needed?
09:40:39 From Null Flancian to Everyone : or has this happened?
09:40:47 From Boris Mann to Everyone : @Flancian No, not really
09:41:08 From Boris Mann to Everyone : Regular humans like rich text editors. Notion and Roam are rich text editors, they just have a very plain text feel in many cases.
09:41:10 From Bill Seitz to Everyone : I’d guess 80% of gdocs users use “bigger font” instead of H2.
09:41:16 From Marc-Antoine Parent to Everyone : one great quality of Markdown for me (a geek) is diffing text. BUT diffing annotation file in atJSON sounds realistic!
09:41:36 From Norman Chella to Everyone : +100 Codex!!
09:41:46 From Pete Kaminski to Everyone : blast from the past: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roff_(software)
09:41:48 From Marc-Antoine Parent to Everyone : Amazing!
09:41:52 From Tomas Fiers to Everyone : Awesome!
09:41:55 From Marc-Antoine Parent to Everyone : Can't wait to use it!
09:42:08 From Todd Carpenter to Everyone : great talk
09:42:14 From Les Orchard to Panelists : Nice shirt, Mr. Griffiths
09:42:20 From Gyuri Lajos to Everyone : Great indeed
09:42:39 From James Walker to Everyone : The Mozillians are everywhere
09:42:51 From Jeff Griffiths to Everyone : @Les - it’s still a favourite! I can’t believe it’s still going.
09:43:15 From Jeff Griffiths to Everyone : Good to see you here btw.
09:43:36 From Boris Mann to Everyone : I was pretty excited when I saw a Les Orchard signing up to join us.
09:44:18 From Bruno Winck to Everyone : what about non text elements: pictures, vectors, graphs,
09:44:28 From Tim Evans to Panelists : AdjacentBoundaryBehaviour / EdgeBehaviour :)
09:44:31 From Gordon Brander to Everyone : :D
09:44:39 From Gordon Brander to Everyone : brave
09:44:54 From Marc-Antoine Parent to Everyone : @Bruno: Suspect that is the where they use that object replacement unicode character
09:45:03 From Tim Evans to Panelists : That’s correct!
09:45:12 From Marc-Antoine Parent to Everyone : thank you!
09:45:14 From Marc-Antoine Parent to Everyone : will dig in
09:45:28 From Tomas Fiers to Everyone : But what about annotating *part* of picture, video; annotating a data point on a scatter plot
09:46:17 From Gyuri Lajos to Everyone : Yes physical separation and self closing
09:46:36 From Marc-Antoine Parent to Everyone : ah! Interesting. probably out of scope. (In scope of web annotation, mentioned in a question)
09:48:06 From Ethan Plante to Everyone : Exactly, Boris! I’m wondering about data conversion between apps.
09:48:16 From Jack Park to Everyone : https://www.npmjs.com/package/@atjson/source-ckeditor
09:48:23 From Boris Mann to Everyone : That’s the topic! We have hope with atJSON as a common format
09:48:34 From Jack Park to Everyone : +1
09:49:23 From Jess Martin to Everyone : data conversion, but also multiple output types! For example, I prefer to read web articles as PDFs. Generating a PDF from HTML is waaaay more challenging than it should be. Wondering if atJson supports PDF as a renderer...
09:51:42 From Pete Kaminski to Everyone : https://www.ietf.org/about/participate/tao/

'In many ways, the IETF runs on the beliefs of its participants. One of the "founding beliefs" is embodied in an early quote about the IETF from David Clark: "We reject kings, presidents and voting. We believe in rough consensus and running code".'
09:51:55 From Marc-Antoine Parent to Everyone : thanks again!
09:51:57 From Ethan Plante to Everyone : Jess, if it allows for fast conversion to md, then it seems like you can just go from HTML->markdown->PDF
09:52:58 From Boris Mann to Everyone : Thanks @Pete Kaminski for unpacking my references to the IETF :)
09:53:20 From Marc-Antoine Parent to Everyone : Jess: or directly html->pdf with pandoc
09:53:22 From Jess Martin to Everyone : @Ethan That would be _really_ interesting. Currently I take advantage of CSS Print Stylesheets and just "print" to PDF. Which is really awful.
09:53:29 From Scott Jenson to Everyone : Time check?
09:53:36 From Bruno Winck to Everyone : big diff with x,y is there there is no ordering on 2D coordinates
09:54:07 From Jess Martin to Everyone : @Marc-Antoine will go look at Pandoc and see if that's better
09:54:13 From Gordon Brander to Everyone : Ted Nelson's stuff too!
09:54:19 From Gordon Brander to Everyone : all based around standoff markup
09:54:31 From Null Flancian to Everyone : don't talk for much longer or you might end up with a standard! ;)
09:54:34 From Colin-Alexa Robinson to Panelists : “no ordering on 2D coordinates” sure there is, you can just use the cantor diagonlization of rationals
09:54:40 From Ethan Plante to Everyone : xD
09:54:44 From Colin-Alexa Robinson to Panelists : I jest I jest
09:54:58 From Marc-Antoine Parent to Everyone : Bravo!
09:54:58 From Gavin Doughtie to Panelists : :-D
09:54:59 From Jess Martin to Everyone : 👏
09:55:02 From Oshyan Greene to Everyone : 👏👏
09:55:03 From Tomas Fiers to Everyone : 👏
09:55:12 From Abraham Samma to Everyone : 👏
09:55:13 From Jack Park to Everyone : https://reagle.org/joseph/pelican/tag/pandoc.html
09:55:16 From Ethan Plante to Everyone : 👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽
09:55:47 From Ethan Plante to Everyone : @Bruno, couldn’t it be adapted to 2D?
09:56:10 From Pete Kaminski to Everyone : "'flattening' of hierarchical structures"
09:56:39 From Marc-Antoine Parent to Everyone : Streams as basic building block +1000!
09:57:10 From Gyuri Lajos to Everyone : I do not
09:57:14 From Jack Park to Everyone : @map: violent agreement
09:57:20 From Colin-Alexa Robinson to Everyone : @Bruno “no ordering on 2D coordinates” sure there is, you can just use the cantor diagonalization of rationals :P
09:57:30 From Tomas Fiers to Everyone : I don't get it, what's stream here?
09:58:08 From Marc-Antoine Parent to Everyone : Stream of events vs state in general; in this case stream of annotation instead of the resulting hierarchy
09:58:13 From Scott Jenson to Everyone : <black screen>
09:58:29 From Tomas Fiers to Everyone : thanks Marc-Antoine :)
09:58:47 From Marc-Antoine Parent to Everyone : Colin good one! More seriously: rho, theta ordering....
09:59:29 From Ethan Plante to Everyone : Marc-Antoine, how would that affect how apps like Roam look?
09:59:54 From Peter Wasilko to Everyone : I have to leave now, I”ll watch the rest in the replay.
10:00:15 From Peter Wasilko to Everyone : Thanks for the fascinating talks.
10:00:20 From Marc-Antoine Parent to Everyone : It may affect the inner format (which I do not know), but not necessarily the look.
10:00:46 From Marc-Antoine Parent to Everyone : however, atJSON offers more freedom of look than just listicles, and I salute that
10:01:11 From Boris Mann to Everyone : We have SCREAMING_SNAKE_CASE and kebab-case-stickers images, I should really make a CamelCase image, too
10:01:26 From Bruno Winck to Everyone : :)
10:02:05 From Gyuri Lajos to Everyone : Tinkerability
10:02:08 From Marc-Antoine Parent to Everyone : FedWiki style!
10:02:23 From Jack Park to Everyone : TiddlyWiki with FedWiki-like scrolling. Love it!
10:02:31 From Tomas Fiers to Everyone : @gyuri "tinkerability" 👍
10:03:41 From Marc-Antoine Parent to Everyone : @Ethan but for me the important thing about streams vs state is how it scales collaboration
10:03:52 From Norman Chella to Everyone : Wow epub import
10:04:01 From Gordon Brander to Everyone : lovely!
10:04:06 From Gordon Brander to Everyone : xanadu vibes
10:04:13 From Jess Martin to Everyone : "screencast typing" 🤣
10:04:34 From Bill Seitz to Everyone : (epub is gzipped HTML icymi)
10:05:00 From Marc-Antoine Parent to Everyone : constrained html plus some medatada, but essentially yes.
10:05:01 From Ethan Plante to Everyone : @Marc-Antoine how does it do collaboration? (I hadn’t heard of streams until today)
10:05:07 From Stefan to Everyone : love the focus on the epub document type
10:05:14 From Pete Kaminski to Everyone : reading a book is "slicing and dicing the bits"
10:05:53 From Marc-Antoine Parent to Everyone : Ethan: look for "Event sourcing". The important point is that you recall provenance and semantic operations, so you have more context to compose them.
10:05:58 From Abraham Samma to Everyone : This kind of tool makes active reading as easy as breathing.
10:06:37 From Jack Park to Everyone : Is that version of TW in the repo?
10:06:52 From Jess Martin to Everyone : this columnar layout is so nice, and has become really common. is the memex the inspiration? or are there other precedents for it?
10:07:05 From Marc-Antoine Parent to Everyone : FedWiki is the first one I know
10:07:16 From Jess Martin to Everyone : @map thanks
10:07:16 From Marc-Antoine Parent to Everyone : or do you mean the original memex?
10:07:17 From Bill Seitz to Everyone : I’m not really a fan of the columns, I prefer separate windows I can size/drag around.
10:07:17 From Boris Mann to Everyone : @Jack — you can download directly https://twpub-tools.org/ — repo not open yet I don’t think
10:07:19 From Abraham Samma to Everyone : https://github.com/TWPUB/TWPUB-Tools
10:07:23 From Rob Haisfield to Everyone : I would love a sleep meditation read by Jeremy
10:07:30 From Jack Park to Everyone : FedWiki predates Memex, AFIK
10:07:31 From Rob Haisfield to Everyone : Very exciting talk
10:07:34 From Rob Haisfield to Everyone : Very soothing voice
10:07:35 From Jess Martin to Everyone : yeah, meant vanevar's memex
10:07:43 From Gordon Brander to Everyone : Tiddlywiki = Emacs for Thought
10:07:45 From Jess Martin to Everyone : which predates all of us ;)
10:07:53 From Gordon Brander to Everyone : totally amazing to watch Jeremy mod it in real time
10:08:22 From Marc-Antoine Parent to Everyone : Fair. The original original example of columnar annotation is the talmud, of course.
10:09:20 From Jack Park to Everyone : Also known as Miller Columns - Mac file browser uses it.
10:09:21 From Jess Martin to Everyone : @map ah, good point! having multiple "scrolls" open simultaneously would be a very old example, but interesting
10:09:21 From Blaine Cook to Panelists : just use content addressing of the chunks and store it in ipfs ;-)
10:10:11 From Marc-Antoine Parent to Everyone : pub is simple html, as was said!
10:10:25 From Null Flancian to Everyone : I'm not convinced that atjson is the right format here -- it is very cool, but shouldn't we consider alternatives too?
10:10:35 From Rafael Nepô to Everyone : Pretty interesting! Didn’t know about TiddlyWiki. :)
10:10:36 From Bill Seitz to Everyone : are there problems with hypothesis annotation format?
10:10:58 From Marc-Antoine Parent to Everyone : Flancian curious which ones you have in mind?
10:10:58 From Null Flancian to Everyone : @bill that's web annotations standard, I asked a question about that earlier
10:11:09 From Gyuri Lajos to Everyone : Toddlywiki rocks
10:11:10 From Marc-Antoine Parent to Everyone : Ah, yes!
10:11:39 From Tomas Fiers to Everyone : yasss
10:11:44 From Pete Kaminski to Everyone : TiddlyWiki is always beautiful :-)
10:12:04 From Marc-Antoine Parent to Everyone : hypothesis is close but not identical to WebAnnotation, iirc
10:12:05 From Null Flancian to Everyone : @bill the response (paraphrasing) was that it was too complicated
10:12:11 From Abraham Samma to Everyone : wikis are very underappreciated!
10:12:54 From Null Flancian to Everyone : @marc: happy to discuss later if we don't get to it here (I'm taking notes) -- I'm @flancian on telegram, @flancian:matrix.org on matrix
10:13:49 From Jeremy Ruston to Everyone : Thank you everybody for your very kind words
10:13:53 From Ethan Plante to Everyone : @marc, thanks, I’ll look into that
10:14:06 From Blaine Cook to Panelists : I think the main difference between the WebAnnotation / hypothesis approach and atjson's approach is that atjson is optimized for editing content, rather than just annotating content. Obviously they map more or less 1:1, but maybe a similar question to "how is a spoon different from a shovel?" ;-)
10:14:10 From Jack Park to Everyone : https://github.com/gordonbrander/subtext
10:14:14 From Null Flancian to Everyone : thank you for your amazing work!
10:14:32 From Jack Park to Everyone : @null flancion - interested to be in that conversation with @map
10:14:36 From Boris Mann to Blaine Cook(Direct Message) : You’re posting panelist only
10:14:44 From Boris Mann to Blaine Cook(Direct Message) : Yes Zoom chat sucks
10:14:46 From Blaine Cook to Boris Mann(Direct Message) : I think the main difference between the WebAnnotation / hypothesis approach and atjson's approach is that atjson is optimized for editing content, rather than just annotating content. Obviously they map more or less 1:1, but maybe a similar question to "how is a spoon different from a shovel?" ;-)
10:14:48 From vera to Everyone : you said complected, that's totally rich hickey lol
10:14:50 From Blaine Cook to Boris Mann(Direct Message) : lololol
10:14:52 From Blaine Cook to Boris Mann(Direct Message) : damn zoom
10:14:57 From Blaine Cook to Everyone : I think the main difference between the WebAnnotation / hypothesis approach and atjson's approach is that atjson is optimized for editing content, rather than just annotating content. Obviously they map more or less 1:1, but maybe a similar question to "how is a spoon different from a shovel?" ;-)
10:15:11 From Tom Bielecki to Panelists : 😯 Any links/resources available for Subconscious?
10:15:14 From Boris Mann to Blaine Cook(Direct Message) : I LITERALLY knew that that was going to happen, because I know how default broken Zoom is.
10:15:25 From Rafael Nepô to Everyone : I love organising ideas on index cards. :)
10:15:34 From Boris Mann to Everyone : Follow Gordon / Subconscious on Substack: https://subconscious.substack.com/
10:15:35 From Null Flancian to Everyone : please sign up here for a group chat, add your information in the public world writable doc :) anagora.org/tools-for-thought
10:15:39 From Bill Seitz to Everyone : zettel
10:15:44 From Christina Bowen to Everyone : @tom here: https://subconscious.substack.com/about
10:15:55 From Will F. to Everyone : Reminds me of https://notes.andymatuschak.org/Evergreen_notes?stackedNotes=z4Rrmh17vMBbauEGnFPTZSK3UmdsGExLRfZz1
10:16:00 From Marc-Antoine Parent to Everyone : ah, but the book is also a curated filter of the cards. We web users know that the information you omit is as important as that you transmit!
10:16:10 From Null Flancian to Everyone : actually make that https://anagora.org/tools-for-thought-interchange
10:16:19 From Null Flancian to Everyone : @jack ^
10:16:20 From Will F. to Everyone : Liz Gilbert uses this method too
10:16:50 From Pete Kaminski to Everyone : "Today the book is already... an outdated mediation between two different filing systems. For everything that matters is to be found in the card box of the researcher who wrote it, and the scholar studying it assimilates it into his own card index." - Walter Benjamin - Writings 1913-1926
10:16:51 From Tom Bielecki to Panelists : Thanks Boris & Christina!
10:16:55 From Marc-Antoine Parent to Everyone : again ghosts of FedWiki!
10:17:01 From Norman Chella to Everyone : Oh wow, giving me Kosmik vibes
10:17:38 From Marc-Antoine Parent to Everyone : Yes, that's important indeed
10:18:06 From Marc-Antoine Parent to Everyone : Blaine: thank you for the view into tradeoffs
10:18:57 From Pete Kaminski to Everyone : cross-link Walter Benjamin quote, https://twitter.com/andy_matuschak/status/1378550004680249348
"Books as maps! ..."
10:19:33 From Christina Bowen to Everyone : <3
10:19:39 From Will F. to Everyone : “Human Complete model of context”
10:19:40 From Jeff Griffiths to Everyone : I love scraping as a sort of nearly pointless and non-repeatable puzzle game. “What fresh hell is contained in this site? How do I walk the nav?”
10:20:02 From Christina Bowen to Everyone : @will love it..
10:20:11 From Les Orchard to Panelists : For awhile, I tried building scrapers with XSL as a kind of masochistic puzzle game
10:20:29 From Tom Bielecki to Panelists : How long until presentation slides have standard annotation and bidirectional linking
10:20:31 From Boris Mann to Everyone : I’ve got nostalgic feels about XSL these days
10:20:38 From Boris Mann to Everyone : With distance, the horror has faded
10:20:41 From Marc-Antoine Parent to Everyone : Still love xsl...
10:20:46 From Jeff Griffiths to Everyone : And xslt!
10:21:09 From Marc-Antoine Parent to Everyone : (did mean xslt, actually. Never used xsl)
10:21:10 From Ethan Plante to Everyone : @will I thought of evergreen notes too!
10:21:34 From Ethan Plante to Everyone : The link Will sent is really solid, y’all
10:21:39 From Stefan to Everyone : Evergreen notes based on the settle i believe
10:21:44 From Stefan to Everyone : zettle*
10:21:53 From Jack Park to Everyone : The matuschak tweet thread links to https://www.lancaster.ac.uk/chronotopic-cartographies/
10:22:21 From Ethan Plante to Everyone : They’re similar, but I think evergreen is better
10:22:53 From Ethan Plante to Everyone : Here’s his comparison: https://notes.andymatuschak.org/z4AX7pHAu5uUfmrq4K4zig9x8jmmF62XgaMXm
10:23:50 From Boris Mann to Everyone : YAGNI — You Ain’t Gonna Need It
10:24:08 From Jack Park to Everyone : Evergreen is not in Andy’s github
10:24:09 From Pete Kaminski to Everyone : YAGNI - http://c2.com/xp/YouArentGonnaNeedIt.html
10:24:51 From Pete Kaminski to Everyone : "when it's flat, you just concat"
10:25:07 From Les Orchard to Panelists : This format is appealing to me because it seems like it'll be useful 20 years later
10:25:26 From Jack Park to Everyone : Evergreen with full Miller Columns - beyond what it presently does - would make a lot of sense to me.
10:26:01 From Les Orchard to Everyone : Oh meant to send this to everyone: This format is appealing to me because it seems like it'll be useful 20 years later
10:26:12 From Tomas Fiers to Everyone : yes.
10:26:16 From Christina Bowen to Everyone : ^
10:26:27 From Bill Seitz to Everyone : WorseIsBetter
10:26:30 From Pete Kaminski to Everyone : inline links are also an original WikiWiki feature, although Ward's link syntax cleverly is *very* close to regular prose
10:26:39 From Christina Bowen to Everyone : @bill :)
10:27:05 From Les Orchard to Everyone : I used to be really enthusiastic for different outliners & mind-mappers and then 10 years later had to work to get the ideas out of them
10:27:26 From Tomas Fiers to Everyone : Python parsing code on Subtext github is real nice btw
10:27:28 From Scott Jenson to Everyone : clap clap clap
10:27:30 From Marc-Antoine Parent to Everyone : Supporting Pete's bringing wiki. I personally can think of ways of living without inline links, but... I'd need to add tons of stuff to replace it.
10:27:40 From Gyuri Lajos to Everyone : Bringing in
10:27:43 From Gyuri Lajos to Everyone : Great
10:27:56 From Gyuri Lajos to Everyone : You only need deep outliner
10:27:58 From Michael Gartner to Everyone : What were those links again?
10:28:01 From Will F. to Everyone : 👏
10:28:07 From Blaine Cook to Everyone : nested lists with transclusions 😜
10:28:23 From Gyuri Lajos to Everyone : Yes
10:28:25 From Marc-Antoine Parent to Everyone : Michael: Any CamelCase word would be parsed as a link
10:28:25 From Les Orchard to Everyone : Between lists and headings, there's at least two levels of outline here :)
10:28:35 From Gyuri Lajos to Everyone : and semantic mark ins
10:28:58 From Christina Bowen to Will F., All Panelists : Is this Will Fischer? If so - Boris, please add him as panelist so he can augment my talk?
10:29:02 From Marc-Antoine Parent to Everyone : in more modern wikis, we use square brackets. But I like Ward's original CamelCase ;-)
10:29:12 From Pete Kaminski to Everyone : oh wow, Mark Carranza's MX has similarly-sized atoms
10:29:14 From Michael Gartner to Everyone : @Marc-Antoine Sorry, I meant the last two links at the end of the slide
10:29:32 From Jack Park to Everyone : @pete yes!
10:29:33 From Marc-Antoine Parent to Everyone : ah! just hyperlinks
10:29:37 From Michael Gartner to Everyone : github and substack
10:30:24 From Jack Park to Everyone : https://subconscious.substack.com/p/subtext-markup-for-note-taking
10:30:46 From Tomas Fiers to Everyone : https://github.com/gordonbrander/subtext
10:31:15 From Pete Kaminski to Everyone : +1 multiple-source links
10:31:22 From Gyuri Lajos to Everyone : Multi source link it is interesting
10:31:32 From Michael Gartner to Everyone : Thanks Jack and Tomas
10:32:24 From Pete Kaminski to Everyone : multiple-source links sort of remind me of HTTP content negotiation - https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTTP/Content_negotiation
10:32:57 From Ethan Plante to Everyone : @boris, sounds good.
10:33:21 From Todd Carpenter to Everyone : Not a question, but a comment to those gathered here: The ISO Subcommittee on document processing languages (ISO-IEC JTC1/SC34) is arranging several rounds of how document tools are/can add semantics to documents, how these are used by systems, and to what extent standards can support this.  If anyone would like more info or would like to participate, email me todd [at] niso [dot] org  I’ll post a similar thread on the discourse.
10:33:22 From Ethan Plante to Everyone : 👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽
10:33:29 From Jess Martin to Everyone : Fantastic talk Gordon! 👏
10:33:36 From Todd Carpenter to Everyone : Great talk Gordon!
10:33:37 From Gyuri Lajos to Everyone : Fantastic indeed
10:33:50 From Blaine Cook to Everyone : 👏👏👏👏👏👏
10:33:57 From Marc-Antoine Parent to Everyone : before FedWiki, Ward was working with multiple-destination links with disambiguation at the link level
10:34:12 From Pete Kaminski to Everyone : i also like the idea of multiple-target links -- for instance, in a wiki, [[Peter Kaminski]] might give the user a few possible destination pages to choose from
10:34:57 From Null Flancian to Everyone : oh, this looks very interesting!
10:34:59 From Tom Bielecki to Panelists : Great combination of speakers!
10:35:46 From Jack Park to Everyone : https://www.socialroots.io/about
10:36:11 From Jack Park to Panelists : Too bad this zoom doesn’t enable downloading the chat…
10:37:00 From Null Flancian to Everyone : \o/
10:37:04 From Jess Martin to Everyone : IMO collaboration is one of the most challenging and unexplored problems in TfT. but in order to reach Engelbart's ideal of the augmented conversation, it requires >=2 humans collaborating with the assistance of TfT.
10:37:11 From Null Flancian to Everyone : this is *precisely* what we're trying to explore with the [[agora]]!
10:37:16 From Null Flancian to Everyone : so glad to find this.
10:37:17 From Boris Mann to Everyone : @Jack — I am capturing the chat and will post it!
10:37:33 From Boris Mann to Everyone : I will …. Commit it into a repo somewhere, I think
10:37:45 From Marc-Antoine Parent to Everyone : @Boris +10
10:37:50 From Jack Park to Panelists : @Boris Thanks!
10:38:10 From Marc-Antoine Parent to Everyone : Love the idea of semi-permeable membrane
10:38:32 From Marc-Antoine Parent to Everyone : Identity through action is major.
10:38:32 From Boris Mann to Everyone : See https://github.com/TFTInterchange
10:38:40 From Stefan to Everyone : yes, identity through action
10:38:47 From Jess Martin to Everyone : @map agreed - trust what people do, not what they say
10:39:45 From Marc-Antoine Parent to Everyone : I heard of it first in anthropology. Some tribes (notably Iban in Borneo) use involvement as a criterion for citizenship in a long-house (vs birth or location ie just moving in.)
10:39:52 From Stefan to Everyone : lots of permaculture vibes there as well
10:39:53 From Bill Seitz to Everyone : http://webseitz.fluxent.com/wiki/MemBrane
10:40:22 From James Walker to Everyone : +1 to permaculture vibes :)
10:40:43 From Tomas Fiers to Everyone : hell yeah, Knex/lego & gardening
10:40:50 From Norman Chella to Everyone : @Marc-Antoine oh hey, glad you mentioned my tribe! Definitely did not expect Ibans to be mentioned in a TFT event 😅
10:41:04 From Tom Bielecki to Panelists : What did Gordon call it? ThoughtLegos?
10:41:24 From Marc-Antoine Parent to Everyone : Norman did not expect to meet Ibans! Well met!
10:42:09 From Marc-Antoine Parent to Everyone : But back to topic: Belonging is complicated, and few TfT really handle that complexity.
10:42:09 From Stefan to Everyone : enjoying this commentary of group-as-tool-for-thought
10:42:22 From Jack Park to Everyone : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iban_people
10:43:00 From Gyuri Lajos to Everyone : Amazing Christina
10:43:01 From James Walker to Everyone : 👏
10:43:04 From Marc-Antoine Parent to Everyone : Yes, Brava Christina!
10:43:41 From Norman Chella to Everyone : 👏👏
10:43:44 From Jess Martin to Everyone : thanks Christina! So glad to hear these problems are being tackled from first principles. ❤️
10:43:49 From Gordon Brander to Everyone : wonderful
10:44:21 From Null Flancian to Everyone : super interesting vision, Christina! we are running an experiment in a similar space -- would you like to talk/meet/discuss?
10:44:23 From Tomas Fiers to Everyone : thanks :)
10:44:24 From Jack Park to Everyone : Slides on knowledge gardening https://www.slideshare.net/jackpark/knowledge-garden-overview
10:46:22 From Marc-Antoine Parent to Everyone : Great conversation to have! My own stake in the ground: that conversation has to allow arbitrary meta levels.
10:46:24 From Stefan to Everyone : +1 for local-first, permissioned  p2p interaction
10:46:30 From Pete Kaminski to Everyone : "social graph around individuals"
10:46:45 From Marc-Antoine Parent to Everyone : And that means recursive hypergraphs
10:46:51 From Tomas Fiers to Everyone : nice
10:46:57 From Stefan to Everyone : oof minimum viable context <3
10:46:59 From Blaine Cook to Everyone : "minimum viable context"
10:47:22 From Jack Park to Everyone : Don’t forget Lord Dunbar
10:47:34 From Ethan Plante to Everyone : Thanks, Christina! Glad to hear that someone’s working on gathering these kinds of questions.
10:47:54 From Norman Chella to Everyone : That is 100% Flancia
10:48:18 From Norman Chella to Everyone : Also Spiel would be great to discuss with
10:48:21 From Null Flancian to Everyone : I thought the same! :)
10:48:23 From Null Flancian to Everyone : +1 to spiel
10:48:46 From 335431 to Panelists : Fantastic stuff. Thank you Christina and Social Roots!
10:48:49 From Null Flancian to Everyone : https://anagora.org/spiel
10:49:03 From Norman Chella to Everyone : YES IIAN
10:49:09 From Norman Chella to Everyone : +1000 Codex
10:49:30 From Rob Haisfield to Everyone : Can’t wait to see Iian blow everyone’s socks off
10:49:43 From Ethan Plante to Everyone : ^^
10:49:44 From Tomas Fiers to Everyone : 😄
10:49:49 From Christopher Galtenberg to Panelists : Wonderful talk today – enjoyed so much
10:50:02 From Rob Haisfield to Everyone : Everybody wants Iian to win all of the joy the world has to give him
10:50:02 From Stefan to Everyone : lol
10:50:13 From Norman Chella to Everyone : Iian: "Let's start off with real-time markup demo of LDV's letters" 🔥
10:50:23 From Tomas Fiers to Everyone : who's that
10:50:30 From Tomas Fiers to Everyone : ah Leonardo
10:51:12 From Jack Park to Everyone : https://opencollective.com/
10:51:14 From Christina Bowen to Everyone : + 1 to open collective and convening
10:51:22 From Mark Robertson (@calhistorian) to Everyone : +1
10:51:25 From Todd Carpenter to Everyone : +1
10:51:31 From Abraham Samma to Everyone : Thanks for archiving all this info on Github @Boris. It would be shame to lose all this info in the chat when we dissolve this group ;)
10:51:53 From Jack Park to Everyone : @Boris - this series is well worth continuing. I’ll be back:)
10:51:58 From Les Orchard to Everyone : 👍
10:51:58 From Ethan Plante to Everyone : I’ll be back!
10:52:02 From Marc-Antoine Parent to Everyone : Absolutely
10:52:20 From Tomas Fiers to Everyone : Is there a diff between "standoff" and "annotation"?
10:52:25 From Pete Kaminski to Everyone : like @Christina, + 1 to open collective and convening
10:52:29 From Oshyan Greene to Everyone : This was an incredible get-together of so many people, ideas, groups, etc. that I either follow, or am excited to now be aware of. I would *love* to see these kinds of get-togethers/presentations continue, and I've got money on that if needed.
10:52:40 From Ethan Plante to Everyone : @flancian, when we gonna get embedded video chats as their own nodes on your agora? ;)
10:52:48 From Marc-Antoine Parent to Everyone : Tomas: I think that here standoff qualifies annotation
10:52:59 From Marc-Antoine Parent to Everyone : vs inline annotation
10:53:04 From 335431 to Panelists : So rich! Factr would like to see how we can support and work with you all, as we transition to cooperative structure.
10:53:06 From Marc-Antoine Parent to Everyone : Thank you all!
10:53:07 From Tom Bielecki to Panelists : 👏
10:53:12 From Rob Haisfield to Everyone : Yeah annotation can happen inline and if that happens it’s hard to have overlapping annotations
10:53:13 From Jess Martin to Everyone : fantastic stuff! thank you!!
10:53:14 From Abraham Samma to Everyone : Bravo
10:53:33 From Christina Bowen to Boris Mann(Direct Message) : my only hesitation in diving in and helping with more is the lack of women / diversity here - solve this and we will have something really fantastic
10:53:44 From Boris Mann to Christina Bowen(Direct Message) : Yep! I totally know it.
10:53:47 From Boris Mann to Christina Bowen(Direct Message) : Thank you for stepping in.
10:53:48 From Stefan to Everyone : Gordon, is there a way to play with the current prototype?
10:54:18 From Boris Mann to Christina Bowen(Direct Message) : This is the transition from “Boris did two events” to making a community. I’ll email you more about this.
10:54:27 From Christina Bowen to Boris Mann(Direct Message) : Women who code? Black girls in tech? Etc would be a great panel to highlight and call people to see
10:54:39 From Christina Bowen to Boris Mann(Direct Message) : yay! I have IDEAS
10:55:23 From Boris Mann to Christina Bowen(Direct Message) : :)
10:56:06 From Marc-Antoine Parent to Everyone : Basically we went on a "wrong" track with trying to edit a complex hierarchical state; going back to streams is revisiting an old branching point. So convergent evolution, but also giving another clade a chance...
10:56:14 From Jack Park to Everyone : I wonder if there is a Vue.js adaptation of ckeditor-atjson?
10:56:44 From Marc-Antoine Parent to Everyone : Jack: The generic ckeditor is not even public yet. (Though you unearthed the source editor variant)
10:57:38 From Marc-Antoine Parent to Everyone : DID is a better basis for soft group boundary that way
10:57:40 From Pete Kaminski to Everyone : <- used to photo-typeset a dorm newsletter with troff in 1980. (with literal cut and paste with wax to assemble the photo-ready pages!)
10:58:46 From Marc-Antoine Parent to Everyone : Ah question for Blaine: Any thoughts about a streaming CRDT version of your edition API
10:58:46 From Rafael Nepô to Everyone : Awesome :D
10:59:05 From Blaine Cook to Everyone : @marc-antoine: In a word, Yes. 😂
10:59:18 From Marc-Antoine Parent to Everyone : Would love to talk more about this....
10:59:22 From Stefan to Everyone : Twitter list?
10:59:23 From Christopher Galtenberg to Everyone : The partial lenses link above is epic, thank you for that
10:59:31 From Blaine Cook to Everyone : that's a whole separate talk. Or series of talks. Or field of research. lol
10:59:34 From Marc-Antoine Parent to Everyone : But thanks, and fully approve!
10:59:35 From Christopher Galtenberg to Everyone : A slack channel to look into is Future of Coding group
10:59:47 From overcode to Panelists : Discord for Sync comms
10:59:50 From Christopher Galtenberg to Everyone : https://futureofcoding.org/
11:00:00 From Tomas Fiers to Everyone : sounds good
11:00:20 From Marc-Antoine Parent to Everyone : Christopher: also look at Cambrian and Underlay
11:00:20 From Oshyan Greene to Everyone : Did Jeremy mean *Discourse* (because he compared it to Slack "chatty chat")?
11:00:21 From Mark Robertson (@calhistorian) to Everyone : http://webseitz.fluxent.com/wiki/MemBrane
11:00:38 From Tomas Fiers to Everyone : ya 😠
11:00:46 From Christopher Galtenberg to Everyone : +1 on Cambrian – looking at Underlay 🍺
11:00:55 From Oshyan Greene to Everyone : I know, it's so annoying! Comes up all the time in community development spaces. 😄
11:01:02 From Oshyan Greene to Everyone : But yes big +1 on using the Fission Discousre
11:01:17 From Christina Bowen to Everyone : YYYAAASSS! Get more people in the room who are not the usual suspects.
11:01:30 From Christina Bowen to Everyone : Thank you
11:01:43 From Jeff Griffiths to Everyone : Thanks everyone!